Major League Rugby together with James Willocks from New England Free Jacks

5:13 It's fucking the whole country. It's not too cold. I mean, Kirikiri, their violence is okay. Everything north from Auckland. But Invercargill, I mean, I've never been there. I don't want to go there, to be honest. Don't. Do not rush to Invercargill. Do not go there. But anyway, she had this awesome New Zealand experience. And she missed her family. So ultimately, she came back to the States. I followed her back. Wir haben wir den US-immigraten und so wir haben wir getrennt. Ich habe mein Green Card jetzt, das ist great. Das ist ein Perk. Sie ist ein Great Woman, so ich bin sehr, sehr dankbar für das und die bonus. Dann kam back to Dartmouth. Ich habe an opportunity to come back here. Ich habe the last seven years I took a brief stint.

6:04 I took the head coaching job down at Penn State. in State College, Pennsylvania, which, yeah, they're a big-time football program. I'm not sure if you know Saquon Barkley, if you follow the NFL. Saquon Barkley's a running back for the New England Giants, who's hands down the most athletic human being I've ever seen in my life, bar none. So that, for me, I walked into this big-time American university, like big, I mean, 45,000, 50,000 students in this small-town Pennsylvania. And anyway, I found my way back to Dartmouth, und dann seit der Free Jacks haben gekauft, ich habe mich in den ersten zwei Jahren mit ihnen, ich war ein Technical Advisor und dieses Jahr ich bin mehr Hands-On als Assistant Coach so das ist wahrscheinlich ein ziemlich lang-winded Weg zu kommen und wie ich gesagt, ein Wifel und zwei Kinder später und das ist probably home für die foreseeable future. Das ist ein Rollercoaster, das ist ein Rollercoaster.

6:59 Wenn es startet mit den New England Free Jacks, zwei, drei Jahre ago, oder sogar noch? Okay. So it started, so I was involved, so there's actually a great Dartmouth connection to the ownership group of the Free Jacks. So they asked me to go and help out there. So Eric Anderson and Alex Magleby are some of the primary owners of the Free Jacks. Eric and Mags were actually classmates here in Dartmouth. They graduated in the class of 2000. So the years, I may butcher the years, but I guess it was 2018, 2019, we started like an exhibition season. Das war dochност JEROME KL ugh zehn Punkte Puis дуже esf excell rotor They hired a new head coach, Ryan Martin, from Otago, from just up the road from where I'm from.

7:58 I was brought on as an assistant. Pretty fortunate for that. You just mentioned a few years ago, they had some rugby going on in the US. There was a league, kind of, not in the current form, but they had something going on. But that wasn't too successful, I would say. Ja, das ist wahrscheinlich ein guter Description, es nicht sehr successful Es war es Pro Rugby Und das Ich bin wirklich mit dates und years Aber ich würde sagen, das muss ich 2016, 2017 Und sie hatte ein Season oder zwei Ich bin nicht super familiar mit wie es war structured von einem Organisation und von einem Bigger Picture Standpunkt, aber ich weiß es sehr different to MLR. I think it was sort of like a primary owner owned everything. So like at least my very rudimental understanding of it is it's one thing to know you're going to lose a lot of money. It's another thing to actually lose a lot of money.

9:04 So that model wasn't successful and then that sort of went on the back burner and that failed after two years and then out of the ashes with probably a lot of lessons from some people that were involved, grew MLR and Und ich meine, wir sind, ich glaube, vier Jahre in. Als ein League, die Free Jacks sind zwei Jahre in als ein expansion team. Ich meine, da ist natürlich ein Asterix next zu all die Jahre, weil das Jahr war fünf Games und dann. Aber es ist, die Model ist gut. Es gibt viele Leute, die sind sehr keen auf growing Rugby und zu sehen Rugby in diesem Land grow. Und ich meine, Sie sehen, die Standards sind ziemlich gut, too. So, es ist ein sehr cooles Produkt. Ich glaube, das ist ein guter Weg.

9:42 into like, I mean a lot of people are probably knowing about it right now or at least, I mean that's kind of how we got into it as well it's like the kind of famous people going across I mean right now you've got like Ghetto and Adam Ashley Cooper or something like that but previously as well like Bastereau was there for a bit Foden has been over is that like, I mean that's kind of the thinking behind it to have like say those top teams like sprinkled with a few world stars to try and make it popular in America? Is that the seeding of it? That's the concept behind building leagues? Having a team and then sprinkling in a few world stars in it? That's a good question. It depends on the ownership group and on the team because each team is owned by a different group. Some people have different approaches.

10:36 So like NOLA for example. They've got a couple of guys but NOLA are very big on making sure they're developing and growing domestic talent, whereas LA, obviously, LA, I'm sure they will contribute. But it's like, they're good. LA got a lot of really good players and they've used that. They sit there and look, we want to provide the best product available and we believe in doing that, getting these guys will help do that. So I guess it's not, it's probably, it's not the league's incentive overall, but some ownership groups think that bringing those big names, because the American sports market ist sehr anders. Wir denken über Rugby und wir sprechen über Rugby und mit ein paar exceptions, es ist sehr, wir haben die Toilpoppy Syndrome, no one gets too big weil sie alle get cut down. So, es gibt keine Superstars, whereas die American Markt, I feel, ist probably based around having these big Superstars.

11:27 So, some ownership groups look at that, like Ma'anonu last year in San Diego. He war massive. He just came off a World Cup, the Beast, Tendai Marawara at Old Glory. It's not really a league initiative, But I think some people see that as an opportunity to really grow fans in their area. And ultimately, that's what the MLR is trying to do. Because everyone's referred to America as a sleeping giant for so long. But I think a better analogy is probably like we're a sleeping baby giant. Because we actually have to grow the fans. So I think a lot of the teams are looking at it. They use Chris Robshaw. They use these guys, Cecil Africa, as like an opportunity to grow their fan base just through providing a great sort of product, if you will.

12:11 Yeah. And I mean, like, that's what we know if we think about American sports. I mean, not that I'm a massive fan, but whenever I do think about them, I think it's always a product that's brilliantly marketed. So I suppose that's kind of what you're hinting towards as well. maintaining vier maximal wären Active reductions vom練ート обс而已 that maybe this is a good way of kind of just putting in some roots and hoping that they grow down maybe in what you were saying. Maybe another question. So you're saying about kind of the other teams are maybe looking at the kind of structures like, let's say, I don't know, let's say grassroots kind of like younger generations. So there is kind of like talent development below the main teams, right?

13:11 I mean. Yes, absolutely. And some more than other, just because like people are at different stages, Organisations are at different stages of their development So like us at New England We've made a real emphasis On our academy pathways Because the reality is in order to grow Fans, in order to grow rugby players We need kids playing rugby 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 I coach the college game My primary role is the college game And we get guys coming into our programs At 19, 20 years old And we'll develop them, we'll absolutely develop them But we're starting from such a late point So, like, it's twofold. It's one, growing fans, because you get young kids and you get their families. They see the values of rugby.

13:53 They see the awesome experience they have. And two, you actually end up developing players a whole lot better, too. So there is a collective effort to grow, because, like, it's always the top-down, bottom-up argument, right? It's like, do we grow the game from the top down, from the bottom up? But I think those two things are mutually exclusive. And I think you probably need one to do the other, to be honest, because we haven't had the Pro League in the last few years. Das spielt erstmal scaresEh朝 rapping buradan lifecycle woah pierwsze Ich persönlich hagoECT Shopify Jeśli können Mend toothbrush all these Tier 1 nations. I've got a question in regards to the business side and the ownership of clubs.

15:06 You're involved in the podcast as well, if I do remember that correctly, Rugby Revealed. I listened to the episode from mid-March with George Kilbrou, the commissioner of Major League Rugby, and he worked, I think, with Dallas Mavericks for 20 or 30 years, with Mark Cuban, a successful investment. Everyone in Germany knows Mavericks because of Dirk Nowitzki. Aber er sagt, wenn du ein Team in den MRL hast, musst du für drei, vier Jahre und invest in 10 Millionen US-Dollar. Did ich das richtig? Ist das ein Nummer, die wir können? Ja, so die Beinung, das ist was George, das ist es accurate. Er hat uns das, dass du 10 Millionen Dollar hast, das ist 10 Millionen Dollar. So die Expansion Fee ist 10 Millionen Dollar.

15:50 And I believe you also need to demonstrate you've got, I think it was $12 or $15 million in capital to sustain for that three-year period. So it's not a cheap venture. It's not cheap at all. I know that that price has gone up significantly since the league's been developed. But yeah, if you want a team in the MLR now, you've got to have some deep pockets. Okay. Okay. And those investors, whoever decides to invest, to put up a team, I mean, they need to see a potential in that and a product where it's worth investing to a certain degree. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. A lot of these investors, they don't invest to make money in the short term because you're not going to make money buying a rugby team in the short term.

16:35 I think a lot of people see the future and they see like, I mean, already the team's values have already grown exponentially in four years. So if we can continue that trajectory, then yes, $10 million may be a lot for a buy-in now, but in five years' time, we could be looking at a $50 million buy-in fee. Who knows? And I'm not the most intelligent when it comes to the business side of things, so don't take my word for it. So we'll continue to ask you more questions away from the business side of things. You were saying on the Pathways thing, and I want to maybe go into that a bit deeper, because you were saying as well, in comparison to say, I don't know, I can only compare it with what I know maybe from Ireland or from here.

17:18 What we know about America is they have a lot of emphasis on sports and scholarships and building it that way. You were saying at the moment the emphasis on building a pathway for people, like you said as well, to get to rugby. Do you think or do you know of a lot of crossover of athletes, let's say, from one sport, maybe doing multiple sports? Because I know in Ireland we have a lot of sports and the reason a lot of people that are in Ireland are good at rugby is because they've done three different sports and you kind of develop hand-eye coordination from, I don't know, playing golf and, you know, the physical side of it from, you know, playing Gaelic football or something like this. Is there comparable in America like that?

18:01 Maybe because you said that you've got like these guys that are coming across at 19 and maybe it's a bit late to start with them but on the other side of things, maybe people are a bit younger oder physically well-form? Weil sie, ich weiß, was sie spielen in American Football oder so? Ja, sie absoluten ist. Sie absoluten ist. Ich meine, wir haben auch ein paar auf den Free Jacks. Now, Jackson Thebes, he war ein Offensive Lineman an der Universität der Minnesota. So, er war Pac-12, I believe. Er hat sich in Division I Football. Er hat sich nicht in der Welt in der Rugby. Aber er ist ein von der Leute, zu deinem exacten Stimme, er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er wird ein bisschen und er ist ein bisschen ein bisschen, er hat sich really, really well. I think the problem is it's the key positions that we lack. It's the game drivers.

18:44 It's the 9-10s. It's the game sense. But there's absolutely a lot of crossovers and there'll be an announcement out in the next couple of days that the Free Jacks were actually just bringing a guy in who was a football player at the University of Kansas. I'll find his name here. It's Tongan Lad. I'll make sure I don't butcher it. So you're saying the technical positions of what we consider in rugby as technical positions is a bit harder, weil es nicht all about physicalität. Exactly. Nalu Fussimilohi, he ist ein 6'3", 135 kg. Er war ein Offensive Lineman at University of Kansas. Er ist cool. Er ist ein Scrum Half für euch. Er ist ein 10. Wir spielen ihn ein 10. Er ist gut, dass er sich in den Takt mit einem en Mann hat.

19:33 Er ist ein paar Leute wie das, wie das across die League. Wenn ihrkiej indispensable der nächsten Generationen. Also, wir werden das Intellectual Property buy-in. 100% und das ist, die Teams wir gesprochen haben, die internationaler Leute bringen, sie wollen sie in, weil sie natürlich sehr guter Rugby players sind, aber sie sind auch sehr guter Leaders in developing. Ich gehe zurück zu Ma'a Nonny, für example. Ma'a war so pivotal in das San Diego environment. So, er nicht nur die Game wirklich gut, er hat sich alle anderen, was es wie ein Professionell. so San Diego is still reaping the benefits of having a guy like that involved and Chris Robshaw would be the same Chris is an ultimate professional so bringing guys like that in to help educate the domestic guys is massive It kind of reminds me especially with Manonu as well of the Toulon project was about five or six years ago they basically brought in a raft of South Africans New Zealanders, Australians and then in the hope that that would bring up the local guys in Eowen with the regulations in France has changed as well.

21:06 It's kind of like a pilot project from that as well. Absolutely. How much cash are those guys on? Do you have a rough... He's only interested in the money. I don't know. I know that the salary caps per team are at 500k, so about 500,000. So the salary cap is pretty low. und das hat been purposely set low so that we don't get too big too quickly back to my sentiment before knowing you're going to lose money is great losing a lot of money is a completely different story so if the salary cap is too high it's not truly sustainable and I think what we need is actually a sustainable product I don't know what Matt Gato, I don't know what Billy Meeks, I don't know what those guys are making Presumably it falls under the 500k Salary cap.

22:03 Interesting. Okay, I didn't know what the 500k told. Shall we have a, we do a quick break and come back in a second. Great. Perfect. Bei Arjen Robben gab es fast seine ganze Karriere lang Gründe, an ihm zu zweifeln. Der Körper zu verletzungsanfällig, der berühmteste Move zu berechenbar und nach vergebenen Chancen im WM-Finale 2010 und beim Finale Dahome 2012 schien er auch nicht der Mann für die ganz großen Momente zu sein. Keiner dieser Zweifel war erfunden, nur die Schlussfolgerungen daraus waren falsch, denn Arjen Robben kam trotzdem durch. Und wie? Seine Geschichte jetzt in den 100 Fußballlegenden. und die Leute anbieten, ein bisschen mehr in-depth über die Season und die Teams. Ich meine, die Leute haben sich in die Zeit und die Team-Names kennen, vielleicht ein oder zwei Team-Names, und einige sind sehr kreative Team-Names.

23:12 Was kind of Teams, oder gib uns eine Introduktion, was die Favoriten oder die wir uns beherrachten, wenn wir die Highlights sehen, wenn wir die Highlights sehen, zum Beispiel. Ja, das ist ein sehr guter Frage. Und die Team-Names, das ist interessant. Obviously Adam Gilchrist is the owner Of the Giltenis and the Gilgronis So it's a Very Australian thing to name Two teams after you I'll leave it at that but as far As teams go I think like the east coast Pretty stacked obviously I'm going to Say that the Free Jacks are obviously a team to look out For we're a We're a group of battlers we are We've got a group of a lot of domestic guys And we do the ugly stuff And we do the ugly stuff well and Obviously, L.A., you look at L.A. right now, I mean, we played L.A. very first game of the season, and we knew they were going to be good, and we had zero preseason.

24:02 It was literally our first game. And they were like... Somebody answered the same. Yeah, Hayes, could you stop that, please? No, it's like a dog here. Jesus. Anyway, we knew they were going to be good, and they were even better. I mean, like, they're packed. They had Angus Cottrell, they had Adam Ash, Scottish International. I mean, obviously Matt Giteau, Billy Meeks. So LA, they're a good team to watch. They play some good rugby as well. On the West, San Diego, I would have said traditionally San Diego. They've had a tough run at it this year, though. They sort of had to relocate to Las Vegas for the first half of their season, which has obviously been pretty tough on them. And then on the East Coast, I mean, the East Coast is pretty stacked, to be honest.

24:47 So there's us up here in Boston. There's New York, who's doing a great job down the road. und dann ist Old Glory auch. Wenn du die Resulten auf jeden Tag, kann man die Team gewinnen. Das ist gut. Es ist wirklich gut. Es ist wirklich gut. Es ist ein paar Parody across die Liga, die ich denke, ist great. Wir sind nach Nola this weekend. Wir haben ein sehr, sehr gut Team. Wir haben Atlanta in der Conference. Wir haben Toronto, die letzte Jahr waren die Top-Teams. Die East Coast ist sehr, sehr stacked. So ist die West, zu sagen. So you've got to nail your weeks. You've got to make the weeks really, really count because you have an off week and you find yourself in a hole. Yeah. Brilliant. Connor?

25:34 Yeah, I was thinking, so you've mentioned a few of the kind of star players that are already been there. And I was looking at some of the results as well. I mean, one or two of the results are kind of, let's say, very far apart. Some of the teams are a bit overly dominant, let's say, in that respect. You were saying as well about for you, the Free Jacks team of battlers. Is it possible, so I think maybe you guys are less on the course of the team of superstars and more of the team of battlers, let's say, like experienced battlers maybe too, but is that Es ist schwierig dann, wenn du diese Teams kam, weil du gesagt hast, dass du Giltinien auch gesagt hast. Einmal der Ergebnisse war ein grosses Gap in den zwei Teams.

26:25 Es ist unfair, dass es ein ganz Standard Gap gibt? Du hast gesagt, dass jeder Team kann beat jeder Team. Aber vielleicht ist es... Ich glaube, ich glaube, dass es sehr viel Gap gibt, zu ehrlich sagen. L.A. ist gut. Die Blowouts, Sie haben wahrscheinlich sind, sind wir L.A. Sie haben 40, 50 Punkte auf die meisten Teams. Ich glaube, wir haben 21, 17 auf der halte nach einem sehr stark start. Und dann haben wir ein Red Card, das war dann rescinded, das ist ziemlich frusträtig, das put uns in ein bisschen of a hole. L.A. sind gut. Don't get me wrong. L.A. sind ein sehr, sehr gut Team. Aber ich denke, die mehr Zeit haben, die andere Teams haben, together. Because this year was like no other year we've ever seen.

27:15 I mean, our preseason was four weeks dealing with COVID restrictions, and then we're on a plane to go and play that LA team. And a lot of teams are in that boat. So I think that the more games that we can get together, I think collectively the closer that will be. But, I mean, that's it. Like, we've got, don't get me wrong, like we've got some really, really good rugby players in the Free Jacks, some really, really good rugby players. But we haven't gone the Ma'anonu, the Chris Robshaw route. We've gone, let's get guys who are really good leaders in their own right. We've got Tere Matemba, who was captain of the Sharks. He's played 60 Super Rugby games. He's come in this last week. And so just guys like him, Bodine Walker, Dougie Fife.

27:56 We've got a lot of really, really good rugby players. But they're probably not your traditional, your superstar names. und das ist die wir haben und Covid ist so interessant, es hat sich schon ein komplett sparen in den works, ich meine, as you know, this country you probably describe it in military terms as a clusterfuck as far as Covid goes so we're like, we've been forced into this really tight bubble, which has actually been kind of cool though, because it's forced bonding between the guys and the team so that's a little bit of a tangent I apologise, but ja, es ist gut. Es ist okay. Und dann, die eine Sache you mentioned, ich war interessiert auch, dass vielleicht Amerika ist such a large country, und du warst, dass die Teams in den Konferenzen sind.

28:45 Wie ist es logistisch? Weil, obviously, Amerika ist massive. Wenn du auf die Team auf der anderen Seite bist, du gehst auf eine plane und fliehend ein lange Zeit. Es ist anders. Hier in Deutschland, du gehst in der Trennung und travelst du lange Zeit, aber in Amerika ist es ein bisschen mehr of a big expanse. ist es basically a logistical nightmare if you play on a Saturday and then you have to come back and then a week later how can we imagine that the short answer to that question is yes it is a logistical nightmare she's a big old country we go we'll use this weekend as an example we'll leave on Friday morning we'll go down to New Orleans so that'll be like a three and a half four hour flight down to New Orleans We'll get New Orleans Friday afternoon We'll play Saturday We'll get up Sunday morning, fly back on Sunday And we'll do the same thing We did the same thing when we played LA But that's a 6.5, 7 hour flight So it is challenging Oh and by the way, when you fly You've got to keep your KN95 mask And your face shield on the whole time Jesus, face shield Yeah, yeah, so now all of a sudden we're dealing with How do we ensure that the guys are hydrated And fed before and after the flights Because now we've got a 7 hour window where we can't eat or drink.

29:59 So a logistical nightmare is exactly what it is. And that's probably what's hurt other leagues, to be honest, is that it's expensive too. It's not a cheap endeavor to put 30 guys on a plane, fly them across the country, spend two or three nights in a hotel, feed them and feed rugby players, which we all know are not shy on stuffing food down their faces. So no, it is a nightmare. Aber wir sehen uns, wenn wir das geholfen haben, und das ist was wir müssen, das ist was wir müssen, wie können wir die Prozesse in place zu machen, das zu machen, das als möglich ist. Aber es ist natürlich ein sehr, ich meine, es ist natürlich ein sehr motivatorisch behind das, weil, wie du gesagt hast, Sie wollen es machen, so es ist natürlich ein guter Gefühl.

30:46 Es ist nicht nur ein, dass wenn wir ein Blumen, wir machen ein Liga in Amerika, aber es ist tatsächlich ein consideration behind. it and even with the logistical nightmare that you have in front of you still willing there's a lot of willingness there right there's i mean there's a massive willingness because like i think the the upside is is so massive and like six hours on a plane sure it is what it is but like the experience that's gained from that like i mean we took our guys to la like we we got to go we're hanging out on manhattan beach and went for a walk up on on uh what's the beach with a muscle beach venice Ich weiß nicht, ob ich nicht mehr bin. Ich habe keine Müsläge. Ich denke, ich würde mich nicht mehr belaufen.

31:28 Ich denke, es ist eine der größten Ich bin ein paar interessanteer Plätze. Aber ich denke, Venice Beach während Covid-19 war eine der mehr wirklich interessante Plätze. Ich bin ein paar Terminologie, aber es war ein paar wirklich crazy Leute da. Aber es ist der excitement, und der Reward ist so cool. Wir werden offengenommen alle recursos durch Gol groupe hinzub breakoutGAN 찾아 Pierce Tranifi sayin thriller Kampf the reward is there. Ja, für sure. Ich habe noch eine Frage, die muss mehr in die Richtung der Union, der USA Rugby Union, die Bankraft ein paar Jahre alt. Ich meine, die National Team auch. Du hast in den World Cups. Ich glaube, die US aus der Gruppe-Stage, wie ich bin. Wie ist die Ressenship in general?

32:48 Are sie related to the union? How is the cooperation? Is there any cooperation? Financially, no. The MLR is its own separate entity. USA Rugby has obviously realized this and it behooves USA Rugby to keep MLR functioning and to look after the MLR because we've got 15, 16 clubs spending massive money on developing rugby in this country. so there is a great relationship Gary Gold, the head coach of the US Eagles he's going around watching all the games checking in on all the MLR teams from him, MLR is brilliant because now he doesn't have to pick AJ and Samu and take your pick of guys who are playing internationally, now he's got probably 300-400 guys in full-time professional environments so I think there is a really good relationship but I think a lot of people think that USA Rugby and MLR are the same thing, but they're not. They are separate entities.

33:50 But there is, just like I said, it certainly behooves USA Rugby to have a great relationship with the MLR because not only are they providing environments to develop their players, they're also providing academy pathways and opportunities to grow more rugby players. So that certainly helps USA Rugby as a whole. So, yeah, that's my question. USA Rugby doesn't really sit in the driver's seat, I would say. It's purely, first of all, the owners who put money into the clubs and then obviously they hire some really clever and smart people who will develop those people and establish those pathways and that's a good idea to keep that financially and kind of culturally separated or you have like the big body at the top but they're really just responsible for the national team and they just pick from the best guys and they shouldn't USA Rugby should in your opinion not run a league Ja, nein, ich USA Rugby to actually take that on.

34:52 USA Rugby needs to be focusing on what they can do right now, which is academy systems, monitoring academy systems, and the men's and women's national teams. That's where they need to live. Because like I said, you could say that maybe that some women's programs are getting pretty hard done by, but your Free Jacks, for example, and you go around the league, it's like these MLR teams, although there's only male professional teams, they're still investing in growing young girls as well in the women's game as well. So USA Rugby, they'll focus on the national teams and invest in what they can do there, while the MLR teams are doing a really good job growing the ground up, if you will, if you follow that logic.

35:32 Yeah, so then that will kind of feed into the overall goal of making the national team better, because like what you were saying, you don't have to fly to Manchester to watch AJ McGinty or something like this, but rather you have the guys coming through and maybe und vielleicht nicht die nächsten World Cup, aber die Welt Cup nach dem, dann wird es mehr als Homegrown Talent. 100 Prozent. Ich bin, wir haben einfach, und ich bin, wir haben die Zahlen, ich bin, wir haben die Zahlen, aber wir haben wahrscheinlich weniger als 100 Spieler in voll-time professional environments, wir haben wahrscheinlich trippelt das. So jetzt haben wir, wir haben 300, 400 Spieler die Training every single day, die Rugby ist der Hauptsache, die wir nie in diesem Land haben.

36:15 so I think that's obviously great for Gary Gary Gold, the head coach, that he's got that now which is really cool, not to say that there's not still really good, sorry US domestic players playing internationally they'll still get their shot obviously but now the pool's much bigger What you were saying as well, kind of like how is the, or maybe you have an idea of how the standing is because you mentioned your journey as well you came from New Zealand and then you went to America and people talk about rugby and probably thinking like, what's wrong with this guy America doesn't have rugby, football is it kind of like tangible that feeling of yeah it is getting like people who recognise it or when I go out in the street and someone asks you hey what do you do you go yeah something to do with rugby and they're like I know what rugby is that's kind of the reason I ask is because over here in Germany whenever I came to Germany and my friends at home were saying like eh they don't play rugby and I was like yeah okay not really but like there is good people here playing rugby just maybe es nicht so well known.

37:16 Wenn ich in Berlin gehe ich in Berlin und sage, hey, wo ist der Rugby Club? Sie würden wissen, was ich was zu tun. In Amerika, sie haben das Konzept. Obviously, du hast American football und all die massive sports da. Es ist in big competition. Ist es still tangible wenn du in den Städten? Do people know what you're talking about? Yes, they actually do. Actually, das hat mich beeinflusst. Das hat mich beeinflusst, weil ich perception coming in here too was a little bit of like oh this is going to be a real like i'm trying to find an analogy it'll be like playing ice hockey in new zealand or playing lacrosse in new zealand or something that's what i thought it would be like but yeah there's actually there's because like the the american system is really interesting right you look at the collegiate model and and everyone not everyone because i'm i'm probably i'm i'm exaggerating here but everyone goes through college everybody goes through college like that's part of the pathway you go through high school you You sit your SATs, you go to college, you graduate college, you get a job.

38:13 Whereas I even look at back in New Zealand, like 60% of my senior class went to college. The other 40 now who are very, very successful owning businesses, they're like, look, this isn't for me. I'm going to do this. Whereas this system is very college-based. And where I'm going with this is that a lot of colleges have rugby teams. And yes, they may be club rugby teams. But you'd be surprised the number of people that have heard of rugby. The asterisks around that is that people look at you and go, oh, your parties are crazy. Yeah. Well, yeah, okay, sure. So we're almost dealing with – and that actually annoys me a little bit in the sense that, yes, there's a massive social side to rugby. I think it's brilliant.

38:54 I like the camaraderie, the connections. You have a few beers with teammates afterwards. But I think the perception in this country by a large part of the population is that's what it is. Es ist eben oftじゃ你就 pren människjat Barkley Erst vardı Cela schaut kind of boys or something or the guys that are always naked or whatever it is yeah yeah that's that's probably a pretty good description of that but i mean like i would say even in my time though i have seen that change and now like i mean there's professional rugby games on on major networks like you turn on cnn and you can watch the free jacks play rugby um which is which is really cool so it is i think that perception is changing so there is exposure there is exposure and off there if you're saying it's on the networks and i mean that's probably one of the biggest Turtles is, I mean, you know, people over here or in Ireland as well are talking about like pitting things behind pay-per-view and stuff and I mean, that makes it more difficult to reach for like your normal Joe off the street, but like if you're saying it's watchable, it's on television and it is a really good standard, it's not like, we were talking earlier about one or two of the games are like a bit of a blowout like you said, but it's not men against boys on the team, it is a really good standard and there is, in general I've been watching a bit of it now and again, obviously catching up in the highlights, but

40:22 So there is some really nice stuff to be seen there, like when you do take the time. Absolutely. And I think what's been really cool, a great initiative by the Rugby Network, which is I think Rugby Pass, so like my family can sit in New Zealand and watch all the MLR games for free, just on an app and on the website. So the Rugby Network streams all the games, which is massive. And it's funny, and even this is probably a great highlight of this sort of what I'm getting at here, is that the international interest is almost bigger than the domestic interest. Es ist, die Leute wir von Overseas sprechen, und wir sind wahrscheinlich biased, weil die Leute wir von uns sind, die wir in den Regen sind, aber es ist, die Interesse von Australien, die Interesse von New Zealand, die Interesse von South Africa, die Interesse von Ireland, die Interesse von überall ist massive.

41:06 Everyone hat einfach einen Eindruck, was geht, was geht, weil das hier wirklich, wirklich ist. Ich denke, wir sind alle frohne, zu sein, zu sein, und zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein, zu sein. Ihr in den Grönnefloor. Ja und pige garde.\ Bold遊 오랜만YO değildormuş burnout\'��면 mike MOS wszystkie Es ist ein massive Markt, ein massive Opportunität, aber viele andere Rivalen Sports. Ich denke, dass auch die Kommissioner gesagt hat, über die Tension Economy oder so. Du hast so viele Dinge going on in der Welt. Es ist nicht nur andere competing Sports, sondern auch andere Leisure-Aktivitäten, wie Video Games oder whatever. Movies, Videos, ja, absolut. Streaming, whatever es ist, Augmented Reality, Virtual Reality.

42:13 You compete against all of those things. And I'm trying, how can you make your product in the US in such a competitive market? So make it attractive for a non-rugby crowd, I would say. And how can we do that in Germany? I don't know. I don't see a German investor investing for millions. That's so far away from us. Aber vielleicht ist das Problem. Ich weiß nicht. Das ist eine gute Frage. Ich denke, das ist mein Verständnis. Warum ich liebe Rugby und wo ich sehe Rugby ist, es ist ein guter Sport. Und es ist ein guter Sport. Es gibt ein guter Dinge, das passiert auf den Feld. Und Leute wollen sich die Leute smashen, mit der Pads auf und sie wollen sich wide open. Aber ich denke, was wir müssen, und was wir müssen, was wir müssen, ist alles, was mit dem mit dem.

43:07 Es ist, wie ich gesagt habe, es ist, was mit dem Team mit dem Team. afterwards, it's the respect for the referee it's all these other things that we probably, because we know the game a little bit, we take for granted so the story for you, I spent a year at Penn State, which is a big state school down in State College, Pennsylvania and I got to know the men's lacrosse team there really well the men's lacrosse head coach, Jeff Tambroni awesome human being, great coach great mentor of young men he had a funny story he said they tried to do a post-match meal one day with their opposition where they sat down, he said they strategically put mit Ohio State, which is a big rival, just to force a little bit of interaction.

43:48 Just to build the sentiment, we're probably actually pretty similar. Yes, we compete against each other, but we're probably pretty similar as far as human beings go. He says it was an absolute disaster. He said they sat here in silence and they didn't speak at all. To me, that's part of our game. I think that's the part that needs to be sold. You look at Mark Cuban, who played the game. So, yes, I'm sure he loves the physical component, but he knows the experience around rugby. The San Diego, one of the owners of San Diego, never played rugby, but his kids played rugby, and he saw the experience and the camaraderie that was gathered by them, and he invested in San Diego. So I think that's what we can really provide to communities, because, I mean, particularly coming out of COVID, right, like human interaction is so massive, and we've been stripped of that.

44:38 So it's like the interactions that rugby and the sport and this community provide. I personally think that's the angle that you go. Ascent of belonging to a certain degree, I think. 100%. And also kind of, I mean, it's really like symmetrical in what we're talking about here. Because like even before we started chatting, it was kind of crazy to figure out how small the world is. Because what you're describing is that thing, that intrinsical bind that we have, that we've never sat in the same room as one another, but I think that we could have a conversation, even if we stopped on the street and we just said, yeah, yeah, we're both into rugby. And then we could sit down and have a conversation.

45:17 And I think that's something amazing, that intangible, intrinsic link that's like a worldwide bind, like no matter where we are in the world. As I was saying, we talked to a guy, a Scottish guy in Bolivia, playing rugby und there's no comparison to Germany there's no comparison to Ireland or New Zealand but somehow the mentality is there and what you were saying with the yeah I mean each country develops its own culture around it maybe as I said maybe from the original private school thing in England it's moved away from that maybe there is of course that part of it too but there's what I love about it and what you're talking about as well is that sit down together and we've beaten the face off each other on the pitch, but afterwards we get smashed, we go out to the same nightclub or whatever.

46:11 I think that's the thing that binds us all together. And I think what you were saying as well, that's probably the road to success, to really planting those roots down and going, this is not just the game, this is the community or family or something. I think maybe that's the direction of it. Because if it's rooted into the community and family and this is your local club and this is why you do it, maybe that's much harder to uproot or to throw away because it's much less of blowing and more of like, yeah, this has been around for a long time and this is our local club. And I think what you're saying there is so true that that's kind of the right mindset to get into. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't want to be negative, Nancy, but since I'm German, someone has to take that responsibility.

47:01 No, I'm just kidding. What do you think, and it shouldn't sound negative, but what's the biggest obstacle in the US right now? I mean, you're growing up in New Zealand, playing the game there, having an awesome insight coming, and now you live for quite some time already in the US. And so the amateur side and the pro side, you have a valuable experience in both things. And obviously it's not a, I don't know the word in English, Das ist eine selbst-vollfillinge Prophecy, ich würde sagen. Ich meine, da sind einige Obstacles. Was denken Sie, dass ein Hurdle oder eine Neckbreaker ist? Das ist eine gute Frage. Und ich bin ein Eternal Optimismus. All Hurdles sind Möglichkeiten für Lösungen. Es ist okay, dass wir eine Lösung finden sind.

47:45 Classic Kiwi, so ein Positive Attentator. Ja, ich meine, du hast du dich. Du hast du dich. Ich meine, es ist ein großer Weltkrieg. Und das ist einfach als das. Das ist ein wirklich großer Hurdle. Like, it's really expensive to play, to travel. That becomes really, really expensive. Probably the stigma around rugby, like I mentioned before, just around it being, like, just as true, like, party sport. I think that's probably something that... In the U.S.? In the U.S., yes, in the U.S. And honestly, and sort of as I alluded to before, like, and this is actually probably not going to be the greatest coming from someone who coaches a university. I'll be careful with my words here. But it's like this notion that like you must align these things in order to be successful.

48:28 I don't like that. I don't like about like I don't like that about the system. And even like down to like pathways, it's like you've got to make this team and you've got to make this team and you've got to make this team in order to be successful. Like I think that there's there's there's multiple ways about things. And that probably that frustrates me a little bit that people get written off really quickly because they didn't check what someone's perceived to be the right boxes. So I think those would be, call those the hurdles or obstacles, if you will. Maybe that's a good segue, because some of the stuff that I know about, I know that that kind of exists in Ireland as well. If you don't play for the certain teams, underage teams, you won't make it.

49:04 There's actually a few guys from Ireland. I mean, I don't know how high profile, it depends how much people know about Irish rugby, I suppose. But there's a few, let's say, well-known Irish guys going across. Ist das gut fondamentalerweise aspirativoNS entwickeln Podcast впер канале orgt Wert Olá Ist eine дополн doute unseren Vereinigten Good dude. Now, there you go. There you go. There's one. But no, yes, yes. The answer to that question is yes, there is. And I think that's where, like, particularly, and I'll speak to us as the Free Jacks, is that we've been, like, our recruiting has been based around people who aren't just here to clip a ticket. Like, we don't want people who are just going to come and clip a ticket.

50:25 We want people who actually still want to get better, still want to develop. Like, I mean, JP, John Poland, our nine, who's a class, class scrum half out of, he was Connett Academy, I believe. Er ist ein wirklich, wirklich, wirklich guter. Er ist ein Mann wie das. Wir machen unsere Job. JP könnte es spielen Super Rugby, die für uns ist massive. Wenn wir die Spieler in unsere Environment und dann developen sie zu einem was jetzt nachdem wie ein Super Rugby, call es Super Rugby, call es Premiership, das ist ein Massive win für uns. Und dann, in das 5-10 Jahre Zeit, wir sind die Premier Marker. People sind die US, das ist wo ich, das ist wo ich, das ist wo die Best Rugby ist. Ich meine, das ist ein Monster.

51:08 Du hast du über die Fakilität, du hast du über die Investition in Sport. Es ist nicht da in Rugby, aber es ist hier. Ich meine, NFL, NBA, take your pick. So ich denke, die MLR ist ein wirklich guter Job. Und hier ist die Potenzial, aber das ist nicht uns. So, wir müssen nicht pretend, dass wir uns sind. So, wir machen uns und wir machen uns. Und dann, hopefully, wir können uns ein Platz zu haben, in der nicht so distant Zukunft. Es ist ein Baby-Sleeping Giant. Es ist ein Baby-Sleeping Giant. Exactly, we're a baby sleeping giant That is the quote Rugby World Cup 2031 in the US Could that be an option? Lock it in Because you had the soccer World Cup in 1994 in the US I don't know if they played professionally soccer over there in 1994 I don't think so They had two or three unsuccessful attempts I remember. They were in Bankraft as well.

52:05 And now it's kind of decent, I think, and it's running pretty successfully compared to 10, 20 years ago. David Backum is buying in? That's what everyone says. MLR is what MLS was. And people used that Soccer World Cup. That was like a launching pad for soccer in this country. I didn't watch it. I'm not that well versed in it, but from all accounts, that kicked things on. So there's a lot of people here, like even some of the ownership groups that I've talked to in the past sort of six months, they get a lot of lessons from MLS. They've got great connections to MLS. They call MLS and go, okay, what do you think about this? And there was Kimball, who's the CEO, Kimball Carr, who's the CEO of Utah.

52:48 He's got great connections and he was telling a story that he'd talked to this guy from the MLS and the guy from the MLS would just laugh. And he's like, yep, we've been through that. I know exactly what to do. Here's your solution. So like, I think the MLR collectively is taking a lot of lessons, but back to your question is, yes, a World Cup would be brilliant. I would love to take my children to a Rugby World Cup game in the continental United States. I guess that would be pretty cool. 2023 is France, 2027 is not decided. I think they were decided on the same 2027 and 2030. One would be decided on the same day. It must be next year already. I believe so. Ich glaube so. Ich glaube, 2027 würde gut sein, aber ich glaube, ich weiß nicht, ob es sich nicht mehr im Infrastruktur hier ist.

53:35 Und natürlich mehr Zeit würde gut sein. Aber nein, ich glaube, es würde ein massive, massive Launching Pad für Rugby in diesem Land. Ich denke, es ist möglich. Donner, haben Sie noch mehr Fragen? Ich denke, wir haben gesagt, wir haben gesprochen, es ist wirklich gut. Es ist wirklich gut today, Jazz. Ich denke, es ist toll für uns zu bekommen, dass die Insider info ist. Ich denke, es ist etwas, dass wir mit einem einen Eindruck haben. Aber wie Sie gesagt haben, es ist gut, dass es, ich kann, dass die Straße, die Leute kennen. Und natürlich, es ist die recruitment process, wie bei Ihnen, die Leute über die Passung über die Knowledge zu passen. Ich denke, es ist unglaublich. Ich bin wirklich glücklich, dass wir uns mit dem Chat haben.

54:22 Es ist ein absoluter pleasure. Es hat sich auch sehr gut gemacht. Ich hoffe, dass wir uns aufpassen. Ja, das nächste Mal, Jeremie. In Berlin, in Berlin. Und eine letzte Frage von Old May Jared. Er hat gesagt, gut luck mit dem Podcast mit James. Asked ihm, wie er hat er sich von einem Schrohne-Kid an John-McGleshen-Kollege zu einem Pro-Rugby-Kollege. Ja, puberti. Puberty ist ein wunderbarer Ding. Das ist das ich immer sagen. Du hast puberti und Dinge ändern. Es hat mich länger als die average Person. Okay, okay. Good, ich habe mich nicht mehr als die Frage gestellt. Du hast mich schon gesagt, bevor ich die Pod starte. Gut, gut. Ja, danke so much für kommen. Und ich hoffe, dass wir viele Germaner-Geräusche haben.

55:12 Und ich denke, dass wir viele unserer listeners in England sind sehr gut. So, sie haben eine gute Listener-Geräusche. Und wir wirklich appreciate Ihre Zeit. Ja, wirklich appreciate Ihre Zeit. und jetzt weiß ich, dass wir eine Weg für die Germanen, dass wir auch, wenn wir Hagen spielen können, jetzt weiß ich, dass wir die Connection haben. Wir können wir unschicken, und wir können wir unschicken. 100 Prozent! Aber es ist tatsächlich... US Immigration ist... Ich weiß, dass es ein Scham ist. Aber wenn du für die Lande gewonnen hast, dann qualifizieren Sie für ein P-Visa. Weil wir haben Leute, vielleicht nicht mehr für Südafrika, Australien und New Zealand. Aber wir könnten jemanden, die vielleicht für Thailand, sehr, sehr, sehr.

55:58 So, da geht es. So, du hast es einen Nisch in der Markt. Okay, ich habe es. Hier geht es. So, soll ich versuchen, soll ich für Deutschland oder für Sri Lanka? Oder etwas. Take your pick. Ich denke, George, du qualifest für Deutschland oder Sri Lanka? Weil du nicht gut genug ist. Ich finde, ich möchte, sie wollen, sie wollen, eine Ruckbe League in Deutschland. Ich denke, eine meiner Team-Mate von der Team in München ist, ist es so, ich könnte, ich könnte, in der 100-jährige Mannsquad von der Ruckbe League Team in Deutschland. Nein, ich denke, so. James, listen, danke für Ihr Zeitpunkt. Ich denke, wir können, auf die Quote, von Ihnen, dass USA Rugby ist ein sleeping Giant, nicht nur ein sleeping Giant, aber ein sleeping Baby Giant.

56:44 Ein Baby Giant. Ja, das ist es. Ich habe mich über die Baby. Ich habe mich über die Baby. feed it and grow thank you so much nah not at all man, it's been brilliant excellent and listen to us in the next episode bye bye 100% I will, awesome, cheers